October 17, 2002 - Slashdot: Slashdot discusses Peace Corps in "Visiting the World, as a Geek?"
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October 17, 2002 - Slashdot: Slashdot discusses Peace Corps in "Visiting the World, as a Geek?"
Slashdot discusses Peace Corps in "Visiting the World, as a Geek?"
Read and comment on this excerpt from a discussion on Slashdot on "Visiting the World, as a Geek?" Slashdot is the premier technical discussion board on the web. This thread has many good comments on joining the Peace Corps. Prospective volunteers are encouraged to read the entire story as it will address many of their questions and concerns about the Peace Corps.
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Visiting the World, as a Geek?*
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Visiting the World, as a Geek?
EducationPosted by Cliff on Thursday October 17, @05:11PM
from the globe-trotting dept.
Han Onymous asks: "In nine months my contract as a research assistent at my Alma Mater will come to an end. It will not be renewed, I don't want it to be anyway. But outside the economy is too ill to welcome me. I am young. I am healthy. And I want to see the world before I've got the wife and the kids and the double mortgage. I have no money saved, and I don't plan to save some until then. What can a skillful geek (electrical, electronical and software engineer, speaks three languages fluently) like me do to see the world. Volunteer ? Working for a multinational with exchange programs? Something with no connection at all to the tech world? Please share your experience."
Peace Corp (Score:5, Informative)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 17, @05:14PM (#4473861) Join the peace corps [peacecorps.gov].
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 17, @05:18PM (#4473905) NO! Peace Corps is for suckers who need something to do. Do yourself a favor and find something worthwhile like the Red Cross.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2, Informative)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 17, @06:03PM (#4474243) Join Aiesec exchange program
http://us.aieseconline.net
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by stephanruby on Friday October 18, @02:22AM (#4476783) Alter Relationship
(User #542433 Info) AIESEC is an international work exchange program for internships. It's not the same as the Peace Corp. It's run by students in 85+ countries. In AIESEC, you could end up working for a multinational corporation in one country or a non-profit organization in another. Chances are, you won't be able to chose the country that accepts you, but you might be able to chose the general region in the World you may end up working in. It comes with a built-in social network and a support group of University students wherever you go, but the drawback is that this kind of support can vary widely from chapter to chapter.
Judges on The Importance of Plain Language [michbar.org]
Re:Except (Score:0, Offtopic)
by chuckwroks on Thursday October 17, @06:35PM (#4474487) Alter Relationship
(User #564628 Info) Yeah! What he said!
#
1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Re:Peace Corpok but **Open Source** is better (Score:0)
by buswolley (josh@nospam.martianfrontier.com) on Thursday October 17, @06:08PM (#4474285) Alter Relationship
(User #591500 Info | http://www.martianfrontier.com/) peace Corps is good but..We are geeks..why don't you volunteer time to an open source project or something.
Why hasn't anybody else said this??
The Mayor
Re:Peace Corpok but **Open Source** is better (Score:1)
by buswolley (josh@nospam.martianfrontier.com) on Thursday October 17, @06:12PM (#4474314) Alter Relationship
(User #591500 Info | http://www.martianfrontier.com/) Maybe I am ignorant? If so ignore parent?
Peace all
The Mayor
Re:Peace Corpok but **Open Source** is better (Score:3, Insightful)
by ceejayoz (cj@ceejaCOBOLyoz.com minus language) on Thursday October 17, @06:13PM (#4474323) Alter Relationship
(User #567949 Info | http://www.ceejayoz.com/ | Last Journal: Monday September 16, @07:05PM) Open source projects don't generally provide many travel opportunities.
ceejayoz [ceejayoz.com]
Re:Peace Corpok but **Open Source** is better (Score:2)
by Micah ([micah] [at] [JesusIsLife.net]) on Thursday October 17, @06:23PM (#4474414) Alter Relationship
(User #278 Info | http://travtalk.org/ | Last Journal: Friday August 17, @10:33PM) Unless you're lucky enough to have Red Hat or Mandrake or someone fund your travel to expos, or have an expo pay your way to come talk about the project. It happens.
---
God is still in control, He hasn't left the throne.
Re:Peace Corpok but **Open Source** is better (Score:1)
by chuckwroks on Thursday October 17, @06:40PM (#4474519) Alter Relationship
(User #564628 Info) It does happen, I know people it's happened to. But it didn't heppen to anyone with this guy's stated qualifications. Knocking over a little old lady for her pension check happens a helluva lot more frequently. 2 Points for imagination.
Re:Peace Corpok but **Open Source** is better (Score:1)
by dazdaz on Thursday October 17, @07:06PM (#4474637) Alter Relationship
(User #77833 Info) This is quite interesting because you can go around the world as a teacher or doctor however you can go nowhere as a geek. I wonder if this will change in 5/10 years as we become more dependent upon technology.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:5, Informative)
by Otisserie on Thursday October 17, @06:22PM (#4474402) Alter Relationship
(User #618411 Info) I taught computer science in Africa in 1981 with the Peace Corps. Probably one of the first volunteers to do it. I had a great time, but every Peace Corps situation is completely different; there's a lot of luck involved. Peace Corps does have a number of things going for it: 1) medical care and a good connection to the US Embassy, if things get messy; 2) a readjustment allowance that I believe is about $225 for every month you spend abroad (this is over and above your living stipend); 3) non-competitive eligibility for civil service jobs if you complete your service; 4) an actual reason to be in the country you're in, you're not just a tourist; 5) student loan deferrment; 6) I found that both employers and grad schools respected Peace Corps service; I'm convinced it helped me get into grad school. Your mileage may vary, but all told I'm very glad I did it.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by jonbrewer on Thursday October 17, @11:07PM (#4476075) Alter Relationship
(User #11894 Info | http://www.rock-chalk.com/) Peace Corps does have a number of things going for it:
The "things going for it" you list don't exactly coincide with the poster's desires, but at least they're accurate.
I found that the Peace Corps bureaucracy is pretty much the worst nightmare of any free thinking geek. And the tech jobs they talk about just don't exist. While I wouldn't trade my time as a volunteer for anything, I certainly wouldn't sign up again.
I was accepted in 1997, invited in 1998, delayed, invited, delayed, and finally made it to Poland in 1999. I had planned to teach networking skills, having owned an ISP in the early days. I ended up as an English teacher in a rural school, because that's pretty much what Peace Corps does. The school treated me like a kid, because that's what their previous volunteers were.
I resigned after a year in-country, (having outlasted almost half of PC Poland 15) resolving never to work for the US Government again.
I certainly see myself volunteering again, but next time will be with a privately funded NGO. Or maybe just on my own.
Advice to poster: steer clear of Peace Corps. Do some serious research before committing to any organization. Or if you're not of that mindset, put $4000 in your bank account, grab "Lonely Planet" Eastern Europe, and wander around for a year. Email me if you like - I know your situation well.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by Otisserie on Friday October 18, @03:13AM (#4476910) Alter Relationship
(User #618411 Info) You'll get no argument from me about the Peace Corps bureaucracy; it does manage a unique combination of U.S. and host country inefficiency. That said, however, the poster clearly stated that he had no savings, certainly not $4000. Peace Corps does pay your way out and back, provide free medical coverage, and some money when you come home; which *does* coincide with poster's desires. Furthermore, I think there is a very real difference between backpacking through a country vs. living and working there.
Peace Corps (Score:5, Informative)
by jefu on Thursday October 17, @06:37PM (#4474499) Alter Relationship
(User #53450 Info)
I did the peace corps thing after college. And I'd recommend it highly. If you have the chance, jump at it. You'll see and do things you'd probably never encounter otherwise and you'll learn a lot. Some employers will discount it as will some grad schools - but others will look on it as a big plus.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:4, Interesting)
by dan_lamb on Thursday October 17, @07:35PM (#4474841) Alter Relationship
(User #618441 Info) Forget the Peace Corps.
Join the Army. I did it, and I loved every minute of it. You should also forget about using your 'tech skills'. Join the Infantry. You'll learn more about life in three years in the infantry than you would in a lifetime in some crappy cubicle or university lab. You might also get a chance to see some beautiful places like Japan, korea, Thailand, or Germany. You might also see some not so beautiful places under less than ideal circumstances. Which story would you rather tell your grand children: '... and our database design was better than everyone elses' or '... and there I was in my fox hole with bombs exploding all around me ...'?
If it's adventure you're looking for, look no further than www.goarmy.com. Freedom isn't free. Anty up and kick in.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:5, Insightful)
by bugnuts on Thursday October 17, @07:52PM (#4474950) Alter Relationship
(User #94678 Info) If I were modding, I'd mod you up, dan.
But there's one big, nasty assumption you're making when you say Which story would you rather tell your grand children: '... and our database design was better than everyone elses' or '... and there I was in my fox hole with bombs exploding all around me ...'?
The assumption you're making is that you'll live to have grandchildren if you have bombs going off around you. I would say that now might NOT be the time to join the military, unless you honestly want to see action. Most geeks I know don't "take orders" very well, and aren't very keen on shooting at others, unless they're driving a remote-control joystick-driven bomb with cool graphics and lots of 'splosions.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:5, Insightful)
by Dolly_Llama on Thursday October 17, @08:19PM (#4475086) Alter Relationship
(User #267016 Info | http://slashdot.org/) Most geeks I know don't "take orders" very well
This is a common excuse for people reticent about joining the military. The obvious response is 1) You take orders regardless of whether they come from a sergeant or your shift manager at the Taco Bell. Live with it. 2) Someone has got to be giving the orders, so if you think you can do better, get yourself some stripes or a commision and try it yourself tough guy. Seriously, the military is only as good as its personnel. It needs smart kids (geeks even) as much as it needs stereotypical grunts. The majority of manpower aren't people shooting, but supporting those who shoot.
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." -- Carl Sagan
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by bugnuts on Thursday October 17, @08:34PM (#4475203) Alter Relationship
(User #94678 Info) Someone has got to be giving the orders, so if you think you can do better, get yourself some stripes or a commision and try it yourself tough guy.
That's perfectly reasonable, and it sounds like he already has the required degree. The original suggestion was enlisting in the infantry. I don't knock that suggestion at all, but it's directed at what looks to be the wrong person. I'm just saying, if you enlist, expect to see action in these times. We are, in one form or another, in a state of war.
If you do enlist as a geek, I salute you. The recruiter will promise you the world. GET IT IN WRITING on where you'll be assigned and what your duties will be.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by JimPooley on Friday October 18, @04:25AM (#4477062) Alter Relationship
(User #150814 Info | http://slashdot.org/) GET IT IN WRITING on where you'll be assigned and what your duties will be.
Yeah, 'cos everyone knows that geeks need to have special treatment and are better than everyone else...
"Information wants to be paid"
Re:Peace Corp (Score:5, Insightful)
by Ian Bicking (ianb@colorstudy.com) on Thursday October 17, @09:37PM (#4475588) Alter Relationship
(User #980 Info | http://www.colorstudy.com/)
You take orders regardless of whether they come from a sergeant or your shift manager at the Taco Bell. Live with it. If your shift manager tells you to do something against your judgement or your ethics, you can always quit. You can't quit the army, and you can't refuse to do what they tell you. The worst things done by humans have always been done under orders.
Personally, I believe I am responsible for what I do, regardless of who tells me to do it. When you volunteer yourself into a coercive situation, you have handed your soul over to another's judgement. Maybe you think the people you take orders from are going to be good caretakers of your will and your soul, but that's one hell of a risk. Do you really know them that well? Do you even know who the hell they are? It's a long chain of command, and in any situation it's hard to know where it ends... do they even tell you where the command comes from? Do they ever tell you why? Are you willing to live blind?
When you spend your time playing games and doing busywork this doesn't much matter. I wouldn't bet on irrelevence anymore, though.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2, Insightful)
by Dolly_Llama on Thursday October 17, @10:13PM (#4475809) Alter Relationship
(User #267016 Info | http://slashdot.org/) If your shift manager tells you to do something against your judgement or your ethics, you can always quit. You can't quit the army, and you can't refuse to do what they tell you. The worst things done by humans have always been done under orders.
Just as you would quit if forced into an unethical situation by the shift manager, military ethics require one to observe that which is moral. There are other things you can do before 'quitting', but the ultimate step is to disobey what you see as an unlawful order.
Personally, I believe I am responsible for what I do, regardless of who tells me to do it.
I agree and so does the military. Those caught doing unethical or downright criminal acts are held accountable. Think Mi Lai or Nuremburg.
When you volunteer yourself into a coercive situation, you have handed your soul over to another's judgement.
That's a contradiction. If you've volunteered, you've made that choice yourself hopefully having given the decision due forethought.
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." -- Carl Sagan
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by seanw on Thursday October 17, @10:38PM (#4475945) Alter Relationship
(User #45548 Info) (+1, Clear Thinking)
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by nomadic (nomadicworld@@@hotmail...com) on Thursday October 17, @11:20PM (#4476154) Alter Relationship
(User #141991 Info | http://nomadic.simspace.net/ | Last Journal: Saturday February 23, @08:53AM) I agree and so does the military. Those caught doing unethical or downright criminal acts are held accountable. Think Mi Lai
ONE officer was court-martialled; the one who gave the orders. The people who followed the orders were either not charged or not convicted. In other words, they weren't held accountable.
"To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it."-- G.K. Chesterton
Re:Peace Corp (Score:4, Insightful)
by Ian Bicking (ianb@colorstudy.com) on Thursday October 17, @11:23PM (#4476178) Alter Relationship
(User #980 Info | http://www.colorstudy.com/)
Those caught doing unethical or downright criminal acts are held accountable. Think Mi Lai or Nuremburg. Funny you should mention My Lai. From this article [disinfo.com]:
The My Lai massacre. On March 16, 1968, US soldiers from the Americal Division slaughtered 347 civilians--primarily old men, women, children, and babies--in the Vietnamese village of My Lai 4 (pronounced, very appropriately, as "me lie"). The grunts also engaged in torture and rape of the villagers.
Around six months later, a soldier in the 11th Light Infantry Brigade--known among the men as "the Butcher's Brigade"--wrote a letter telling of widespread killing and torturing of Vietnamese civilians by entire units of the US military (he did not specifically refer to My Lai). The letter was sent to the general in charge of 'Nam and trickled down the chain of command to Major Colin Powell, a deputy assistant chief of staff at the Americal Division, who was charged with investigating the matter and formulating a response.
After a desultory check--which consisted mainly of investigating the soldier who wrote the letter, rather than his allegations--Powell reported that everything was hunkey-dory. There may be some "isolated incidents" by individual bad seeds, but there were no widespread atrocities. He wrote: "In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between Americal soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent." The matter was closed.
To this day, we might not know about the carnage at My Lai if it hadn't been for another solider who later wisely sent a letter to his Congressman. (Twenty-five years later Powell gave an interview in which he not only failed to condemn the massacre but seemed to excuse it.)
Though some of my faith in humanity was restored when I heard a historian note that by the end of the Vietnam War pilots were refused en masse to run bombing missions over North Vietnam, having destroyed all plausible military targets. (The military is working hard to make sure something like that can't happen again, e.g., military drones)
What bothers me about the military is there is no accountability when it comes to its past. What happened to the people who ordered LSD testing on soldiers? What happened to the people who used chemical warfare in Vietnam (Agent Orange)? What about the person who wrote the manual to teach the Latin American soldiers to torture? What does it mean that someone who tried to cover up My Lai has become Secretary of State? I don't know what has become of all the past military criminals, but it doesn't seem like much -- and anyone who joins the military now doesn't really know what they are going to be asked to do, or what the ultimate intentions of the leaders are. But past performance gives a pretty damn good idea.
And what you do in the military isn't about stupid shit like illegal monopolies. You can do wrong on a scale not normally possible in our everyday lives. Let's be honest: you can do evil. And you might not even realize it... when you flip the switch that drops the bomb, do you know if your cause is really just? Do you know who you are killing? Are you ready to kill a child? Are you ready to kill a mother? Because the military is killing a lot of children and mothers these days, and if the bombs start falling on Baghdad, the number of innocent dead is going to skyrocket, no one can deny it. Are you ready to be part of that killing machine?
It's one thing to bet your own life on a cause, but the military gave up that a while ago -- American soldiers die in accidents, not battle. Now they're betting other people's lives on it. The moral weight of killing is far heavier than the moral weight of dying. I'm not a Christian man, but I have great respect for the teachings of Jesus -- I think we all know on which side of the bomb he'd be on when it falls from the plane, and I think we'd all know which person would receive his blessings.
Read the rest of this comment...
Re:Peace Corp (Score:5, Informative)
by kasparov on Thursday October 17, @11:26PM (#4476191) Alter Relationship
(User #105041 Info | http://www.otherwiseguy.com/) As someone who spent 30 days in solitary confinement for disobeying orders in the Marine Corps (mainly because I am a stubborn geek who isn't good a taking orders that I disagree with--yes I know it was a really bad idea to enlist in the Marine Corps as an Infantryman if I can't take orders...the recruiter called on a particularly interesting day in my life--we'll call it a "learning experience"), I can attest that taking the "ultimate step" and disobeying orders can be a very unpleasant experience. One's rights under the UCMJ are significantly less than one's rights under the US Constitution.
In regards to the job analogy, you don't get sent to jail for deciding to quit your civilian job.
Moderators: Remember, confidence is not a substitute for knowledge.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by liloldme on Friday October 18, @03:11AM (#4476904) Alter Relationship
(User #593606 Info) Those caught doing unethical or downright criminal acts are held accountable
You must be living in a fantasy world, or are just being fucking naive.
There's a reason why the US wants to exempt its citizens from international justice system [amnestyusa.org]. The crimes committed by the US military forces are plentiful [mediamonitors.net], yet there seems very little accountability to be going on in the US.
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More Slashdot discussion of Peace Corps in "Visiting the World, as a Geek?"
Read and comment on this aditional excerpt from Slashdot on the Peace Corps at:
Visiting the World, as a Geek? (part 2)*
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Visiting the World, as a Geek? (part 2)
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1, Offtopic)
by schlach on Thursday October 17, @11:53PM (#4476283) Alter Relationship
(User #228441 Info | Last Journal: Friday September 27, @12:37PM) +1 Insightful. There's just way too many interesting discussions on this article to sit and moderate, though.
Though some of my faith in humanity was restored when I heard a historian note that by the end of the Vietnam War pilots were refused en masse to run bombing missions over North Vietnam, having destroyed all plausible military targets.
Sorta like what some Israeli officers are doing in Palestine [seruv.org.il].
(The military is working hard to make sure something like that can't happen again, e.g., military drones)
Yes, there is the geek "contribution". Sigh. It would perhaps be better for the world, if not necessarily for each nation's military might, if all the World's geeks motivated to develop better weapons were to instead enlist. If nothing else, it might at least put a face on the death and suffering caused by the previous generation's "defense" geeks, rather than making the decision to kill a less human one.
With regards to the parent, I would agree that you are ultimately responsible for every action you take. Having "orders" is a dodge. My advice would be to join no military or organization that would issue you orders that you would feel uncomfortable refusing, should they conflict with your own judgement. Lend your skills and judgement to your employer, whomever it should be. Never give up your judgement, or become a tool for others to do evil.
I'm always reminded of the Allies and the Germans, at the signing of the Armistice at the end of WWI, getting up out of the trenches and meeting each other in No Man's Land for congratulations and revelry. Why didn't they do the same ten minutes earlier? Because the orders to kill were still coming in, and the order for peace had not yet arrived. How odd.
I believe there are very few people fighting wars that want to be fighting wars. The real motivation is coming from the top, the orders of people who aren't involved in combat. Everyone else is praying for peace, but have been stirred by a sense of duty to compromise their judgement in the service of the war mongers. Again, what an odd thing to value more than life itself.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by schlach on Thursday October 17, @11:58PM (#4476301) Alter Relationship
(User #228441 Info | Last Journal: Friday September 27, @12:37PM) As someone who spent 30 days in solitary confinement for disobeying orders in the Marine Corps (mainly because I am a stubborn geek who isn't good a taking orders that I disagree with...
Sir, you've earned my respect. Would you mind if I ask what order you disobeyed?
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1, Offtopic)
by Dolly_Llama on Friday October 18, @12:06AM (#4476337) Alter Relationship
(User #267016 Info | http://slashdot.org/) What bothers me about the military is there is no accountability when it comes to its past.
I'll be the first to admit that the military and the government as a whole as done a whole lot of fucked up shit. Hell, if you haven't already read them, I would recommend reading A People's History of the United States [amazon.com] or Deterring Democracy [amazon.com] among many fine books on the subject.
The dilemma for the thinking individual is how to deal with all this history. I would recommend engagement. In that I reiterate what I said earlier, if you can do a better, more ethical job, I would encourage you to do so. The military is not made up of heartless monsters, but by people like you making sometimes very difficult decisions.
Are you ready to be part of that killing machine?
I have been a part of 'that killing machine' and with a clean conscience. I did the best I could in my small role in the service. I obeyed my ethics as best as I was able. Perhaps if those responsible for those horrible things had done the same, they never would have happened. Perhaps if persons with your moral integrity were making decisions, our nation as a whole would have the same clean collective conscience as I. I mean that seriously. The military needs people just like you.
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." -- Carl Sagan
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1, Offtopic)
by packeteer (packeteer@subQUOT ... n.com minus punct) on Friday October 18, @12:56AM (#4476497) Alter Relationship
(User #566398 Info) A Peoples History of The United States is an awsome book. Read it and youll love it. I loves reading it on my won and just a month ago it was assigned as a textbook in my high school. Its an awsome thing to read but remember it IS highly opinionated and although its a good book dont be a slave to ANY book you read. Free thought is probably the best thing you have and the easiest thing to waste.
unzip;strip;touch;finger;mount;fsck;more;yes;unmou nt;sleep
Re:Peace Corp[s] (Score:2, Informative)
by jonathanweaver on Friday October 18, @01:28AM (#4476591) Alter Relationship
(User #534939 Info) Everything written up to this point has assumed you are a US citizen. If that's true, read on.
If you simply want to travel and do good in a tangibly fruitful way, join the US Peace Corps. My cousin did this and actually speaks well of it *after* getting so sick she had to leave early. You get a really solid lifeline in case you suddenly require medical attention or quick evacuation. Almost everyone will respect what you did, regardless of their national, political, and/or philosophical background. And the experience lasts a lifetime, usually in a positive way.
If you want to do good and (also) find out lots about who/what you are, join the US Army. I guarantee this experience too will last a lifetime; but it might not be so sweet. You'll find out things about yourself, and about people in general, that don't surface during the medi[c]ated experience most of us accept as everyday life.
Now that I've exposed some of my own biases, let's explore a bit of reasoned counterpoint to some of Ian Bicking's writings:
----------------
> by the end of the Vietnam War pilots were [sic] > refused en masse to run bombing missions over > North Vietnam Surprising this assertion is. I've reviewed a fair number of the primary documents without coming across anything to support this observation. I'm aware of at least two US Navy fliers who got courtmartialed for not following orders whilst in the aeroplane; but their crime was deviation from course and an unauthorized weapons release, not a mission refusal. Can you recall which historian made this claim/when/where/to whom/citing what?
> having destroyed all plausible military targets The question of what makes a target 'military' is the subject of numerous thick books. A restrictive definition would have precluded, for instance, turning out the lights in Ho Chi Minh City. But Operation LINEBACKER doing that, and things like that, brought the North to the negotiating table at a time when they were already correctly confident that they would win the war. Whether or not you accept that US intervention was morally right, it's hard to argue that bloodshed is presumptively preferable to negotiation. (The same argument applies, more recently, to Kosovo/Belgrade/Yugoslavia.)
> the people who used chemical warfare in Vietnam > (Agent Orange) Orange was used *as* a defoliant. There were technicians who knew how toxic it was, but it's not clear that the decisionmakers in Vietnam did. MAC-V also dropped Orange on its own troops -- difficult to reconcile with a desire for victory, if the release authority meant to employ it as a chemical weapon.
> Because the military is killing a lot of > children and mothers these days Really? Where? Are you referring to the human shields whom Saddam voluntold they'd go stand next to the air defence systems that were about to start shooting at US and British pilots?
> It's one thing to bet your own life on a cause, > but the military gave up that a while ago -- > American soldiers die in accidents, not battle. US soldiers do die in battle. The US Army has had some success in reducing the numbers, but a dispassionate review of US military history over the last, say, twenty years reveals that US soldiers died in battle in Grenada, Panama, Iraq, Somalia, and Afghanistan. The US Army's deployment to Albania in 'support' of the Kosovo Air Campaign killed US soldiers only in accidents. It also killed zero persons of any other nation, since it never executed a combat mission.
> Now they're betting other people's lives on it. No, they're betting *their* lives on their Army's ability to protect them. And they know an uncomfortable lot about how finite that ability is. Soldiers in battle generally do not fight for causes. They fight for survival, frequently for the survival of their buddies, occasionally for a charismatic leader. Citizens
Read the rest of this comment...
Re:Peace Corp[s] (Score:2)
by Ian Bicking (ianb@colorstudy.com) on Friday October 18, @02:10AM (#4476750) Alter Relationship
(User #980 Info | http://www.colorstudy.com/)
by the end of the Vietnam War pilots were [sic] refused en masse to run bombing missions over North Vietnam
Surprising this assertion is. I've reviewed a fair number of the primary documents without coming across anything to support this observation. I'm aware of at least two US Navy fliers who got courtmartialed for not following orders whilst in the aeroplane; but their crime was deviation from course and an unauthorized weapons release, not a mission refusal. Can you recall which historian made this claim/when/where/to whom/citing what?
I'm afraid it was mentioned during a radio program, which leaves me only with impressions. They were talking about the book Catch 22, and someone noted that it wasn't really accurate because the Air Force has never forced a pilot or crew to fly a mission -- they always had the option to decline (so there wasn't any court marshals over this). Then I think another guest talked about Vietnam, and I recall him saying something like half the missions were being cancelled toward the end because no one would fly them -- maybe it was more, I can't remember. This was despite the fact that by that time there was no danger to flying those missions, as the North Vietnamese no longer had offensive air capabilities.
It doesn't seem at all surprising -- during WWII, I believe I've heard that when given the opportunity to fire at an enemy, only about one third of the time the soldier actually fire. I believe this was true on both sides in Europe, not sure about the Pacific (I think people would find it much easier to fire on someone of a different race). The military was very concerned about this. I believe they increased that number by the time Vietnam came around.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by Ian Bicking (ianb@colorstudy.com) on Friday October 18, @02:27AM (#4476796) Alter Relationship
(User #980 Info | http://www.colorstudy.com/)
I believe there are very few people fighting wars that want to be fighting wars. The real motivation is coming from the top, the orders of people who aren't involved in combat. True indeed. It's notable in this light that both the president and vice president were draft dodgers. Well, Bush serving the the National Guard, a position he could only get through priviledge, apparently not even showing up for his duties. Cheney getting repeated deferrals to avoid the draft.
It's frightening, these people are who would lead us to war... I suspect in their hearts they take death of others lightly.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 18, @02:46AM (#4476838) THANK YOU for a great post! It's nice to see someone who gets the bigger picture and can convey it clearly.
Re:Peace Corp[s] (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 18, @03:33AM (#4476952)
> Because the military is killing a lot of children and mothers these days Really? Where?
In every war they participate in, you fucking retard.
Re:Peace Corp[s] (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 18, @05:37AM (#4477217) >> Because the military is killing a lot of > children and mothers these days
>Really? Where?
For instance in Afghanistan.You'll have a hard time convincing anyone that the 5000 Afghans killed so far since the troops arrived are all member of the Taliban. Just think of the "intelligent" missile that hit a marriage-celebration killing more than 200 civilians earlier this year.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 18, @06:20AM (#4477298) You certaintly have your knickers in a knot.
The underlying characteristic of much of this discussion is selfishness. Which, I admit, is not really unexpected. The several rants against the military and military service contain a strong feeling of selfishness on the part of the writers. Geeks in general are often painted as selfish, which, while stereotypical, has truth to it.
One of the defining characteristics of service (at least in the Australian Defence Forces) is the selflessness or the unlimited liability that service entails. You are willing to die for your mates and your community. You have to subsume your self to the needs of those around you. Australian military history is long story of how powerful this can be.
Before you begin on essay about freedoms and rights of the individual, remember that you only have those rights because someone was willing to die for you. Ironic isn't it, that you are able to live selfishly because of the selflessness of others?
So, military service will not appeal to those who are by nature selfish. Nor would you be particularly functional if you do enter the service. In the end it is personal choice, however, don't knock those who enter the defence forces nor be ignorant of what service entails.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 18, @06:42AM (#4477349)
You must be living in a fantasy world, or are just being fucking naive. i recommend you try fucking naive, too. she's pretty good. :-]
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 18, @06:47AM (#4477365) This message brought to you by the founders of Utopia, where we all can truly live in peace.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by wisemat (twiseman@fosw. c o m) on Friday October 18, @06:41AM (#4477345) Alter Relationship
(User #561791 Info) Personally, I do trust our millitary. Every war we have fought this century has been a just one in my opinion. The millitary does expect obedience to all lawful orders, but there is no law of physics saying you must obey if they order an atrocity and an abomination to your soul. And if the order was illegal you won't even be in the stockade too long if you can prove it to the court martial.
And if you really want to go in the army without the risk of being ordered to do something against your morals, go in the nurses corp or become a combat medic. They hold noncombat status under the geneva conventions, are never assigned weapons, and never ordered to kill.
I am a big fan of the Peace Corps and respect them immensely(though I've never been in), but I'm always a very big fan of the millitary. I joined two weeks ago and I ship out on November 6th to basic.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by crazymennonite on Friday October 18, @08:06AM (#4477673) Alter Relationship
(User #40480 Info) FYI. As a field medic, you will carry a weapon. You will use it.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by wisemat (twiseman@fosw. c o m) on Friday October 18, @08:50AM (#4477988) Alter Relationship
(User #561791 Info) Not unless they have changed things since the material I read was published. Field medics so far as I know are defined as noncombatants under the geneva convention, just like chaplains, this means they cannot carry or use a weapon in battle or they will loose that noncombat status. Of course, for the same reason, they do not receive combat pay while in combat.
Can anyone with actual current experience verify this?
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by charleyb123 on Thursday October 17, @10:10PM (#4475795) Alter Relationship
(User #618476 Info) Right! The Army needs geeks too, and everybody takes orders... especially IT departments and programmers (unfortunately from managers that don't always understand technology issues). You might be surprised at how much freedom you get in the Army... you might be taking fewer orders in the Army than in the private sector! Everybody knows their job, and does it. The army recently opened up a 74B MOS (military occupation specialty) that's essentially network technician (novell, ms, etc.) They can use them *a lot*. Custom programming and automation fits right in. The digital battlefield is here. I know, because I'm away from my civillian job and am sitting in Afghanistan. The Army is a very good choice for geeks.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by Loki_1929 on Thursday October 17, @11:08PM (#4476086) Alter Relationship
(User #550940 Info | Last Journal: Tuesday October 08, @05:43PM) "Most geeks I know don't "take orders" very well"
You're absolutely right!
"It needs smart kids (geeks even) as much as it needs stereotypical grunts."
So are you!
So I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll join the Army on Monday... if Bush makes me a 5-star general on Tuesday. I'm not much for shooting at people, but I can certainly look at a map and yell, "go here!".
(west wing humor) Just make sure Nancy doesn't call me "admiral sissy-pants" :-(
--- They may take our lives, but they will never take our FREEDOM!!!
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 18, @05:00AM (#4477128) (yes, yes, I know I need to create a slashdot account but...) I am an IT project manager and the issue about management styles are an area of research for me. There is a definite difference between the "attack attack attack because I wear the brass, private" and the "please can I have your db designs and use cases by Friday's deadline, your the expert/developer/team leader and should think for yourself to solve a problem". Yes, it generalises military, as well as IT project environments, but there is some truth.
Guess where people like me (and most IT guys) fit in? And guess why military relies on private sector for major IT contracts? Computers teach us to question. That is the nature of debuggers. And that is the nature of the people doing the debugging. See a problem, solve a problem, question the outcome and test your assumptions. Maybe that is why I hated military service so much.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by alphatool on Friday October 18, @08:53AM (#4478013) Alter Relationship
(User #603160 Info) I am Australian.
NO-ONE CAN MAKE ME DISCLOSE MY PERSONAL KEYS.
I WON'T GIVE YOU MY KEYS
( YES. I will go to JAIL before that.) I Know what the sniper will do next. Someone will die while going about their life. HE/SHE/IT liked Nirvarna. So do I.
suck my balls. email me for more info @ apyule@yahoo.com
PLEASE
I BEG OF YOU
Re:Peace Corp (OT: ARMY) (Score:2, Insightful)
by gotih (jhaglund@nOSPaM.hushmail.com) on Thursday October 17, @10:00PM (#4475749) Alter Relationship
(User #167327 Info | http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Tuesday August 27, @05:12PM) i'm sorry, but where were you that there were 'bombs exploding all around me'? boot camp? there havn't been any real wars in years, only bombing campaigns -- a real war requires two combatants.
as for the 'prestige' of being in a war... look at vietnam. did we really 'anty up' for freedom? these things always look good on tv, and we can always justify our actions in the movies that follow but the reality is that we don't fight for our fundamental freedoms anymore -- we fight for free trade.
all i'm saying is that being on slashdot, you probably have your own ideas and opinions on situations throughout the world. by joining the military you loose the opportunity to act on your own ideas and instead submit yourself to the wishes of those in power. which brings me to my last question: how well do your ideas and goals match those who are in control, politicians between the ages of 40 and 70 with a net worth of at least 4 million?
i know i don't agree with them so i won't be ordered by them.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by JC97_AK3* on Thursday October 17, @11:31PM (#4476206) Alter Relationship
(User #223408 Info | http://slashdot.org/) 2 points:
1) The Army is a pretty safe place to be, these days, jobs that have higher casualty rates include firefighting & farming. Even during a war casualty rates are low.
2) The Army will teach you to do all the things that geeks are traditionally bad at. I found it worth it for this reason alone. Now that I'm running my own company, I find my Army experience contributes heavily to my success.
If you do go, remember: It's not the bullet with your name on it that you should worry about; you'll never dodge that one. Worry about all the ones that say, “To whom it may concern.”
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by Peterus7 on Friday October 18, @12:16AM (#4476368) Alter Relationship
(User #607982 Info | http://www.angelfire.com/realm/storynet | Last Journal: Wednesday October 16, @12:31AM) Hmm... The thing is while the army might be fantastic for some people who need it or want it in peacetime in getting their lives started and giving them good skills, but if you have to go to war things can change. And I agree, the US military has very few losses, but as a previous post noted, is this all ethical? Is 'following orders' a plausable excuse for torture of innocent civillians? And is this war you are fighting a 'just' war? If I were in the military I would find myself asking those questions, and that would probably impair my ability. And I think a lot of geeks would do that, and get pretty political and stuff. I dunno, Peace corps just seems a bit more suitable for the geeky computer programmer type, no offence to those who serve in our nation's military, for I do respect it, I just think that some people would not do well in it, and I believe that sometimes it can be unethical, just like anything. (But what would you rather be attributed to: Working for a company that was corrupt as a computer tech or fighting in a war full of war crimes on your side?)
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by Peterus7 on Friday October 18, @12:02AM (#4476313) Alter Relationship
(User #607982 Info | http://www.angelfire.com/realm/storynet | Last Journal: Wednesday October 16, @12:31AM) And what if one of those bomb shells goes off a bit too near you, you won't have too much of a story to tell your grandkids because you'll be in the next world. Plus, I agree, most geeks would do horribly in the military. They'd freak out, not take orders well, and just lose it, plus their political views might interfere. I'd go with peace corps, because then you're helping people, not shooting at them. (But I'm not saying that war is necessarly bad, it's just that I find that geeky types will do better with jobs where you are helping people.) Plus, there's boot camp.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 18, @02:56AM (#4476863) "Most geeks I know don't "take orders" very well, and aren't very keen on shooting at others"
I'm a geek and I have a pretty weak stomach too...but If i have to I will gladly plug a terrorist in the forehead! Those jack-ass islamic neanderthals are still lving in the stone age and feel like they should take it out on us because we have made something of our country...
I have recently been pondering buying a couple of firearms for the sake of protection...because if I ever see a terrorist weilding a gun or bomb, i'll plug him...no second thoughts...but I live in Australia and our gun laws are pretty tight...so unfortunatly buying a gun is kinda hard.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by caveat on Friday October 18, @08:13AM (#4477714) Alter Relationship
(User #26803 Info) unless they're driving a remote-control joystick-driven bomb with cool graphics and lots of 'splosions. the bombardier in the 4-seat version of the A6 (not the Intruder, i can't remember what it's called) and in the 2-seat F15D Strike Eagle get to fly the newest video-guided bombs down with a joystick. it's mostly IR though, so it's black and white. good polygon count though, and the 'splosions are SO cool.
Almost all of our faults are more pardonable than the methods we think up to hide them. -- La Rochefaucald
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by caveat on Friday October 18, @08:16AM (#4477727) Alter Relationship
(User #26803 Info) blah. and that's what happens when you don't drink your coffee, get and
mixed up, and don't preview. BLEH.
Almost all of our faults are more pardonable than the methods we think up to hide them. -- La Rochefaucald
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by caveat on Friday October 18, @08:19AM (#4477746) Alter Relationship
(User #26803 Info) get BR and B mixed up. and keep forgetting to preview. and then end up spamming slashdot. ah well, at least my antics might be mildly amusing
Almost all of our faults are more pardonable than the methods we think up to hide them. -- La Rochefaucald
Re:Peace Corp (Score:4, Funny)
by Chundra on Thursday October 17, @08:18PM (#4475079) Alter Relationship
(User #189402 Info | http://slashdot.org/) That's the spirit. Hey, I just bought an American flag sticker today, but I didn't put it on my bumper. Nah, that's not appropriate for my country, instead I put it smack dab in the middle of the gas cap on my BMW. God Bless America!
--
Script kitties. Free to a good home.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 17, @09:34PM (#4475570) Christ. I remember the first time I saw someone driving an escapade (that's what I call 'em). I almost choked seeing that abomination. Big shiny Daddilac symbol on the back screaming out "look at me I'm a black man who lives in a shack, but I gotst me a Daddilac". Yeah boyeee. Aye aight. Yomesayin?
#
1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 17, @08:22PM (#4475109) Absolutely. In the army you'd be able to become truly well rounded, i.e. you'd gain physical strengths to match mental ones, as well as gaining some more mental ones.
P.S. He's an engineer. He'll never forget his tech skills.
P.P.S. With words like electronical, he could work on picking up English as a fourth language ;)
P.P.P.S I'm using Phoenix to post this, if it works this well on 0.3, it'll be the new standard when 1.0 rolls around!
Re:Peace Corp (Score:3, Funny)
by Meefan on Thursday October 17, @08:33PM (#4475198) Alter Relationship
(User #526525 Info | http://cooltech.org/) Gee, tough choice: tell my grandkids I was boring, or be dead. ;) Dave
------
http://cooltech.org [cooltech.org]
If it ain't cool, it ain't cooltech.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by BoneFlower (g DOT worroll AT subdimension DOT com) on Thursday October 17, @08:45PM (#4475289) Alter Relationship
(User #107640 Info | http://members.aol.com/ctraverboy/) Heh... Military service is a great option. 5 years USMC here. If it wasn't for that, being a geek for a living(my current ambition) wouldn't happen... I'd have just about enough drive and discipline to hold a job as a McDonalds janitor.
www.marines.com
mv /bin/laden /dev/null
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by Peterus7 on Friday October 18, @12:05AM (#4476329) Alter Relationship
(User #607982 Info | http://www.angelfire.com/realm/storynet | Last Journal: Wednesday October 16, @12:31AM) Well the thing is military can be great for some people, but for present geeks it may not be the right thing, yet if they have the option of doing well in the world and being boring vs. being in the military, most geeks would probably do better being boring, as they would probably freak with other things.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:2)
by packeteer (packeteer@subQUOT ... n.com minus punct) on Friday October 18, @01:03AM (#4476529) Alter Relationship
(User #566398 Info) Your right that it will give you drive and ambition. It will make you very quickly realize you should be telling people what to do not be told what to do for the rest of your life. Youll figure out that your going to hafta work some stuff out if you wanna do anything with your life.
unzip;strip;touch;finger;mount;fsck;more;yes;unmou nt;sleep
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by NTDaley on Thursday October 17, @09:14PM (#4475448) Alter Relationship
(User #259087 Info) Having bombs exploding all around you tends to reduce the odds that you'll get to have grand children... mortally.
Nicholas Daley
insert ':-)='s as appropriate
yeah.... (Score:0, Insightful)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 17, @09:24PM (#4475509) Freedom isn't free. Anty up and kick in.
Yeah, it comes at the cost of civilians lives in [columbia | iraq | serbia | afghanistan | nicaragua | palestine | chile].
Re:yeah.... (Score:1)
by magusstrife on Friday October 18, @01:08AM (#4476539) Alter Relationship
(User #612194 Info) not to mention every tax payer. that is valuable gaming money ...or the govt could spend less on nat. defense and more on stem cell research, education, space exploration, etc. but that will never happen 
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 17, @09:36PM (#4475584) Yes, the army! That's the ticket! Which other job in the world allows you divine rights to invade other countries and remove whatever government they have there just because it is not compatible with Uncle Sam's version of democracy?
I mean, where else can you prove the superiority of the US of A's military capabilities as well as the ability to rape native womenfolk just because you are American... and might as well grab some natural resources at that.
Which other job can get you to experiment with new ways to kill? Lab rats??? Hell, no... we kill people here in the Army! And most of them are civillians at that.
Yes man... the Army is the way to go!
Re:Peace Corp (Score:1)
by charleyb123 on Thursday October 17, @10:17PM (#4475835) Alter Relationship
(User #618476 Info) Yeah, look at those evil people. They brought us the internet, and I heard that there's sometimes pornography on that.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 18, @01:33AM (#4476615) Yeah, look closer. They brought us Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Re:Peace Corp (Score:5, Insightful)
by King_TJ on Thursday October 17, @09:43PM (#4475638) Alter Relationship
(User #85913 Info | http://home.swbell.net/kingtj | Last Journal: Thursday October 03, @05:20PM) So wait a minute? Given the two options, it's automatically far better for someone to join the army than the peace corps?
Nah, you're entitled to your opinion - but I think that's completely "apples to oranges". The Peace Corps. seems to thrive on individuals who like to teach or train others. There's a lot of education going on there. The Army, on the other hand, tends to attract those who lack direction in their lives. Perhaps someone who just "needs a change" and hate the routine they're stuck in. But if you want to teach people, the Army isn't the place to be. You're there to pretty much "shut up and learn" and then "do, based on what we told you".
Freedom sure isn't free, but it's also a fact that if you end up dead, you absolutely lost all of your own freedom.
Also, I know this is just a generalization - but an awful lot of people I knew who joined the military came out as sort of "empty shells" of the people they once were. True, they might have been washed clean of their bad habits they used to have -- but they also seemed like their brains got re-loaded with a bunch of indoctrination about the way to be a "real man" in the U.S.A.
There's something eerily "zombie-like" about some of these guys. They're suddenly almost "too polite" and dress a little "too sharp" at any semi-formal occasion. Many times, they suddenly get a strong urge to get married, have kids, and become a cookie-cutter image of the "family man". I know you can't really fault any of this. On the surface, it looks like the guys really "cleaned up their act" -- but it's a little unnatural. I don't think they came to these lifestyle conclusions and changes purely on their own.....
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By confusedbylife (c-68-41-43-96.hsd1.mi.comcast.net - 68.41.43.96) on Friday, December 01, 2006 - 9:03 pm: Edit Post |
Is it considered selfish to refuse to kill, to refuse to be the arm of a political machine that is generally used to generate money in the United States? Or is that unselfish? Don't you think that sometimes it is necessary to do something for PEOPLE and not just for America...or the idea of it? War is not a selfless act. It is generally far from a selfless act. There are exceptions, of course. There are always exceptions but there haven't been many in the United States of late. We fight for money not freedom. We take freedom away, not intentionally, at least not in the lower levels, but we do it. In Iraq, for instance, we helped to destroy a dictatorship, but then proceeded to erect a government in our own image. It has been rejected; Iraqi's now FORCIBLY reject it. We call them terrorists. (It is a word that we like) Isn't our country's position that the people have the right to reject their government? I'm not sure anymore. Are you.
